Cycles-RPG

You might remember my post about building our story within the adventure ? Well, I had posted it on story-games ... Well, well, no one understands what I'm saying !!!!

I really stink (but real bad) at presenting my ideas !!!! I need to get better at this !!!

Anyway, here's my answer to their posts, hoping it is clearer and makes sense now ...

First, sorry for the late answer. I've been out of town with no internet access for the last two weeks. So, anyway ...

Now, to begin, just a couple of things concerning this thread :
- I really stink at presenting my ideas !!! I need to better myself, so thanks for your input.
- My issue here is in the context of a campaign. I'm curently working on a plot related project and really believe there is much left to work around those.
- Most of the time, "adventure" is opposed to "story" as games from a mechanic point of view. But I think the way the plot is written also matters.

And before starting the discussion, I'd like to mention what are my needs when playing a campaign :
1. I want the PCs to have freedom, to be able to choose their own path, their own destiny.
2. In this context, I want the PCs to be able to change their "center of interest" in the course of play.
3. I want the PCs to be able to interfere with the plot ; change things.
4. I want the PCs to be in a "living world", to get the sense it doesn't live only around them.
5. I want the world to be coherent from a plotline point of view.

I don't know how helpful a comment this is, but it seems to me that the game is always centered on the players.

Yes, Iagree, that's how it should be. But, when centered around the players, are they doing some adventures (just following a plot, with no real freedom) or are they building their own story ?

You can have all kinds of stuff going on in the background of the "world", but until the players engage it, or it changes their goals, or otherwise affects them, it's pretty much just meaningless color. As soon as any of that stuff going on in the world really matters, it matters only because the PCs/players have decided it matters.

If the PCs engage into some events, then this plotline matters to them. But, if they don't care about the king's assassination, this event might still matter a lot to the kingdom and have major impacts. I don't think it is just color. Maybe a rude tyrant will take its place and then it will matter to the PCs and they will engage into it. Maybe the new ruler will engage into a war with a country whom the PCs care about. Well, of course, for some events the PCs won't care about it at all !!! But, in the process of writing prewritten plots, I can't take one or the other for granted.

To try to address your question, though, to the degree that I understand it, you can "prewrite" as much stuff as you want, as long as you can be resonably assured that the PCs won't have a chance to interfere.

But I want to use the prewritten part, taking nothing granted from the PCs' part into it and I want them to be able to influence it ?! How do I do that ? See my solution below ...

Since you're using the word "world" two different ways here, I've got some thoughts.

Yeap, my mistake. Let's give this a try :
- The world : the sum of everything happening into a given space time continium. Now, for an hermeunetic, this doesn't exist, as it would suppose some kind of God's eye point of view. Now, let's say that "the world" would correspond to everything the DM knows. I'm not glad with this, but it will work for the moment.
- Your world : things happening into a given space time continium from your point of view. It may be a subset of the world.

Let's say my world is a treehouse. Our neighbor is lobbying to get our tree taken down. I'm taking part of that because, well, the treehouse is my world! If that means egging his dog or trying to sweettalk the inspector, we'll do what it takes!

Yes, you're right. Your world is the treehouse. If the game and any related plot to it is only about the treehouse, then the world is limited to it ; and your world is more or less the world. If this treehouse is in the context of a bigger scheme, located in a kingdom on the verge on war, then your world is a subset of the world.

This isn't some "lesser" event for us, because we care more about that treehouse than anything else. Certainly i'm a pivotal character when it comes to my world -- the thing I care most about -- but that means little in the greater scheme of things. But, that's my world.

No problem with me there about the "scale" of events. But, is it your world because there is no larger world ? If the world consits of two locations and three NPCs, well, maybe you don't need a specific design to hold any kind of prewritten plot. Maybe, you want play a campaign just about your treehouse. Now, one question : let's say the world is larger, but you don't care about it because you only care about your world, your treehouse. Let's say you save it and want to continue to play those PCs in the context of a campaign, thus starting to explore the world, expand your world. What had happened into it when you were saving your treehouse ? Was the world "on hold", waiting for you ?

You could scale that up to saving Earth in a galactic game, or make it more personal be defining your world as "My burning vengeance for my father's unjust murder."

Let's say you're playing a game where your PCs want to avenge it's father's unjust murder. Can you tell me that the events of the world won't affect your PCs ? Can you tell me your PC won't engage in anything else ? As I see it, to avenge your father's death is your priority. But is it ? Are there other plots into which you could engage, but decline ?

What exactly is this middle that you're talking about? Games where the events of significance in the greater world don't happen to your character, thus there's nothing of significance?

The middle I'm talking about is the use of some kind of prewritten plot, defined before the game, and the use of creation at the table, not defined earlier. About the events of the world, you don't know beforehand if the PCs will engage into them or not. And even if they don't engage into them, it doesn"t mean it is of no importance as they might turn out be very important later.

Why is 'adventure' not 'story', or vice versa? It sounds like a false absolute. Like Josh, I'd ask for some Actual Play example of what you're looking for, either real accounts or just give us an example of your ideal.

For me, adventure is the part prewritten. Living campaing, sold by TSR might be a good example of pure adventure : PCs have no choice, they can't derail from the plot. Everything that is provided is used. Capes, on the other hand might be an example of pure story.

As for an actual play example, there is one in my teaser (last page before the back cover).
And here's more or less, how I do things for Avalanche :
- Mapping out all the events that happen in the world without taking the PCs into account.
- The use of multiple plots simultaneously.
- The use of a calendar instead of chapters.
Now, what does it change :
- When the PCs decide to engage into a plot, it is their choice (and they have choices !!!)
- This structure allows to specifically pinpoint the impact of the PCs.
- Note that the PCs might change a plotline, but changing all of them at a given time is impossible.
- It is very easy for the PCs to move from one plot to the other. They are doing something and meet another plot, change their priority and engage into something else.
- Affecting a plot is possible, but it takes time. But, even if the PCs change a plot, there are still others provided by the product, so the DM can still use it.
- When we play, we really work on their story, but in the context of a prewritten plot.
- The world is evolving. Each time the PCs go into a major town, their first reaction is asking "what had happened lately ?" because those events, even if the PCs weren't there still have their importance : they have change the world.
And, as this is a campaign, thus going on over a long period of time, there is no real events of no importance. Maybe something happened a long time ago, but the results are important and the plot still go on, based on those events that happened in the past.
Well, of course, using this design, a DM will only use about 25% on the final product, but the resulting game experience will be coherent from a plotline point of view. And using so little is one of the reason I believe it makes a product : no one would be crazy enough to map out events, if they don't know if their PCs would engage into them or not. That said, there is a strong replay value to this kind of product, as everytime a DM plays it, the story will always be different (the PCs will explore a different part of the adventure).

Well, I hope I am clearer now ...

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Mon article sur l'utilisation de scénarios préécrits pour parvenir à créer son histoire a été mis en ligne sur un forum de discussion. Bon, quelle surprise, je ne me suis pas fait comprendre. Vraiment, je suis trop mauvais pour expliquer ce que je fais et il faut absolument que je m'améliore !!!

Ci-dessus, vous ma réponse, en anglais, ainsi qu'un lien vers la discussion. Désolé, j'ai la flemme de traduire !!!!

Here it goes :

- The Rmap is completed and enlisted in the contest.
- I've just bougth online a PC game. The game has no CD and is downloadable. Not only is the game nice, the buying easy (no CD to keep), but they are independant publisher !!! So, let's encourage them !!!
- I've heard about this game thru the website of Greg Costikyan, one of the creator of paranoia. Great site and very instructive reading. He talks about independant publishing, rpg and video games ; about new design and way to sell them. Go read it now !!!
- We have started to redo the homepage. Go and take a look, especially the illustrators. You like it ? It's only the beginning !!!
- I'm going to the beach for two weeks. No internet, for a change. I'll surely work on Avalanche !!! But, there will be a two weeks vacation for the blog too !!!

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Sujets divers et variés :

- La Rmap est terminée et présentée au concours.
- Je me suis acheté un jeu sur PCs en ligne sur le net. Le jeu est démartialisé et se télécharge. Non seulement le jeu est sympathique, et l'achat convivial (pas de CD à garder), mais en plus ce sont des indépendants. Allons encourageons-les !!!
- J'ai entendu parlé de ce jeu au travers du site de Greg Costikyan, un des créateurs de paranoia. Excellent site et une lecture très intéressante. Il parle de publications indépendantes, tout autant dans le jeu de rôle que dans l'univers du jeu vidéo ; ainsi que de nouveaux concepts, une étude de l'état du marché et des nouvelles façons de commercialiser. Courez-y immédiatement !!!
- Nous avons commencé à remanier la page d'accueil. Allez y jeter un coup d'oeil, tout particulièrement les illustrateurs. Ca vous plait ? Ce n'est que le début !!!
- Je pars en vacances à la plage pour deux semaines ; pas d'internet pour faire changement !!! Je vais surement avancer sur Avalanche, j'ai plein de choses à faire. Mais ce sera également deux semaines de repos pour le blog !!!

The concept of "story games" appeared with the indie rpg publishing and is strongly related to the type of games created by the people who formed the community of the Forge. Here's a definition (taken from the site story-games :

:::A Story Game is a type of role-playing game or gaming experience with a lesser focus on My Character and a greater focus on Our Story.:::

Being familiar with this type of game, I think I understand their objective and I believe this concept should be apprehended as opposed to "adventure games" which may include, among other things, the classical prewritten scenarios our hobby had known for the last thirty years. Now, I'd like to adress this issue in the context of Avalanche, and from a point of view of plots and not rules. But first, a little note :

I've studied philosophy (with a university degree to prove it) and personally, I'm an existantialist (to be exact, hermeneutic, but let's put this detail aside). This means that I am the master of my destiny, that my path is not already written, that my life has a meaning because it can be told, narrated, just like any story. But, my own existence is linked to a context, a history, a language. I can't understant my existence outside this context. I can't understand "my self", my actions, my decisions while ignoring the events of the world that surrounds me. It is also "them" who define who I am (well, quite obviously, I wasn't born in the middle age, I'm not a native english speaker, I can read, for instance). For me, it is the central notion of "sense" that is at stake here. Now, back to rpg.

I quite understand the critics toward the "adventure games" since, I must admit, I'm no longer really interested in that type of game anymore. Because the game is centered on the PCs, as if the whole world was turning around them ; because, somehow, their path is already decided, fixed in advance, as if the PCs had just to follow the flow of a river ; because the PCs do not dispose of the freedom that would allow them to really define themselves ; because, finally, they don't really own the key to their destiny ; because it is not really about "their story", but instead about their characters in the context of "a story". Well, I know, I kinda simplify things here, but I think you get the picture ...

As an alternative, there are the "story games" which, normally, needs very little prep and the absence of any prewritten plots. This time, the PCs get all the freedom they need to generate "their story", without constraints and restrictions. But, on the other hand, any kind of context is driven off. The events of the world cease to happen ; and the stakes are lower. How can we give sense to "our story" in the absence of "the story" (the one of the world) ? How can an existence be "read" without a context ? How can one justifies its actions and decisions outside the story of the world ? Once again, I know, I simplify things, but I believe you get the picture ...

So, in one hand, I have "a story", the one of the world, into which the players take part without freedom ; on the other, I have players building "their story" without any kind of context, outside the story of the world. As a DM, I feel some kind of insatisfaction in both cases ; as an individual, I have a philosophical problem with both. Is there some kind of alternative, some kind of middle ground ? That's what Avalanche is about.

To allow the players to build, to write "their own story", but inside the story of the world ; a world that lives, but asks nothing from the PCs, imposes nothing to them, especially a prewritten path. To give the players a freedom, but which takes sense, is "inside", "the Story". Of course, this objective needs a completly new approach toward the design of prewritten plots, which is at the heart of our project, and that I won't present here.

But, maybe the most important thing : does this conception changes our approach toward rpg, does it change the way we play, does it change the role of the DM, does it change the way the players apprend the game and the role they take into "their story" ?
To all of those, we believe the answer is "yes".

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Le concept de "story games" est apparu avec le jeu de rôle indépendant et fortement lié au style de jeu produit par la communauté issue de The forge (ie type de jeu narrativiste). En voici une brève définition (la traduction est de moi, issue du site story-games) :

:::Un "story game" est un type de jeu de rôle ou d'expérience de jeu se focalisant moins sur Mon Personnage et accordant davantage d'importance à Notre Histoire.:::

Etant familier avec ce type de jeu, je crois en comprendre l'objectif et je pense qu'il faut aborder ce concept en opposition avec "adventure games", représentant, entre autres, les scénarios pré écrits classiques que notre hobby connaît depuis 30 ans. J'aimerais maintenant aborder cette question dans le contexte de Avalanche, et ce, d'un point de vue "scénarios" et non "règles". Mais tout d'abord, une petite remarque :

J'ai fait des études en philosophie (diplôme universitaire à l'appui) et, personnellement, je suis fondamentalement existentialiste (pour être plus exact, herméneute, mais laissons de côté ce détail). Cela signifie que je suis maître de mon destin, que mon chemin n'est pas déjà tracé, que ma vie a un sens puisqu'elle peut être narrée, racontée telle une histoire. Toutefois, mon existence est liée à un contexte, à une histoire, à une langue. Je ne peux comprendre mon existence hors de ce contexte. Je ne peux expliquer mon "moi", mes actions, mes décisions, ma liberté, en rejetant les évènements du monde qui m'entoure. C'est également eux qui me définissent, qui m'influencent (de toute évidence, je ne suis pas né au moyen-âge, je ne parle pas le grec, je ne suis pas illettré, par exemple). Pour moi, c'est la notion de sens qui est ici en jeu. Revenons maintenant au jeu de rôle.

Je conçois très bien les critiques adressées aux "adventure games" puisque, je dois l'admettre, ce n'est pas un style de jeu qui m'intérèsse particulièrement aujourd'hui. Parce que le jeu est centré d'abord et avant tout sur les PCs, comme si le monde gravitait autour d'eux ; parce que, en quelque sorte, leurs histoires est déjà toute tracée, définie à l'avance, comme si les PCs se contentaient de suivre les flots d'un fleuve ; parce que les joueurs ne disposent pas de toute la liberté qui leur permettraient réellement de définir leur personnage ; parce que, finalement, les joueurs ne sont pas réellement maître de leur destin ; parce qu'il ne s'agit pas réellement de "leur histoire", mais davantage de "leur personnage" dans le contexte d'une histoire. Bon, je sais, je simplifie un peu ici, mais je crois que vous me comprenez ...

Comme alternative, il y a les "story games" qui, de façon traditionnelle nécessitent très peu de temps de préparation et l'absence de trame narrative pré écrite. Cette fois, les PCs disposent de beaucoup de liberté et peuvent réellement générer "leur histoire", sans contraintes, sans restrictions. Par contre, le contexte de cette histoire est absent. Les évènements du monde qui les entourent cessent d'exister ; et les enjeux en sont réduits. Comment donner du sens à "notre histoire" en l'absence d'une "histoire du monde" ? Comment une existence peut-elle se "lire" sans contexte ? Comment justifier des décisions, des actions hors d'une histoire du monde ? Encore une fois, je sais, je simplifie, mais je crois que vous me comprenez ...

Donc, d'un coté, j'ai "une histoire", celle du monde, à laquelle les joueurs participent sans liberté, et de l'autre, j'ai des joueurs qui construisent "leur histoire" sans contexte, à l'extérieur du monde. En tant que DM, je suis insatisfait dans les deux cas ; en tant qu'individu, j'ai un problème philosophique dans les deux cas de figure. N'y a-t-il donc pas d'alternative ? C'est bien l'objectif d'Avalanche.

Permettre aux joueurs de créer, d'écrire leur propre histoire, mais au sein d'une histoire du monde ; d'un monde qui vit, qui n'attend rien d'eux, qui ne leur impose rien, surtout pas une voie pré écrite. Donner aux joueurs une liberté, mais qui prend son sens, qui s'inscript dans "une histoire". Bien entendu cet objectif nécessite une refonte complète de la structure des scénarios pré écrits, point d'orgue de ce projet, que je n'ai pas l'intention de répéter ici.

Mais, peut-être le plus important : est-ce que cette conception modifie notre approche du jeu de rôle, est-ce qu'elle modifie le rôle du DM, est-ce qu'elle affecte la façon dont les joueurs appréhendent le scénario ainsi que le rôle qu'ils jouent au sein de "leur histoire" ?
A toutes ces questions, nous croyons que la réponse est "oui".

Recently, I've been talking to you about a contest concerning the creation of a Rmap for an ongoing campaign. After some thougths, not only have we decided to create one for Avalanche, but also to take part in the contest.

Which means that this map will be available for free from the site who organised the contest.

Here's a first draft of our work : Rmap for Avalanche.
Please note that there is still a lot to do : some layout, a presentation, a legend, the credits and the english version of the map (the draft is in french).

What I really like about the concept of this map is that it allows to give a pretty good view of what Avalanche has to offer. Of course, the "story" is absent from the map, but the "essence" (beside locations and creature) is all there. This is really what we are selling.

In fact, I like it so much, I'm thinking of making it "evolves", from season to season, adaptating the various relation between the different characters and organisations. Quite franckly, a very, very good tool for the DM.

This map, once finished, translated in french and english, will be available on our webpage, next to the maps of the cities and the teaser. This will done, of course, in the context of the "makeover" of our webpage ; still to come.

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Je vous parlais récemment d'un concours sur la création d'une "relationship map". Et bien, finalement, après mûres réflexions, non seulement allons-nous produire une carte pour Avalanche, mais nous allons également participer à ce concours.

Ce qui veut dire que cette carte sera disponible gratuitement depuis le site qui organise le concours.

Voici une première version de notre travail : Rmap pour Avalanche.
A noter qu'il nous reste encore de la mise en forme à réaliser, traduire la carte, y ajouter une légende, modifier certains liens, en faire une présentation ainsi qu'y indiquer les "crédits".

Ce que j'apprécie particulièrement sur le concept de cette carte, c'est qu'elle permet de présenter un réel tour d'horizon de ce que Avalanche propose. Bien entnedu, cette carte ne permet pas de voir l'histoire, la trame narrative relative à Avalanche, qui demeure un aspect très important de notre produit, mais l'essence, à l'exception des lieux et du bestiaire, y est complétement présentée.

A ce propos, je crois que nous allons peut-être faire "évoluer" cette carte, au fil des saisons, pour présenter l'évolution des liens entre les différents personnages/organisations. En somme, un excellent aide de jeu !!!

Cette carte, une fois terminée, traduite en français et en anglais, sera disponible sur la page d'acceuil du site, au côté du teaser et des cartes. Cela fait bien entendu parti de notre projet de refonte de page d'accueil, qui ne saurait tarder à être terminé.